You have forgotten that the Senate Republicans filibustered more than any other Senate in history. That is why President Obama could not get his agenda passed. Our economy is in difficulty because we are still working with Bush tax cuts to the wealthy, unfunded wars (though Obama is doing his best to end both), and health care costs that are rising (though a single payer system would fix that). The Republican House is more worried about religion, abortion, pledge of allegiance, and making sure that the top 1% of the wealthy pay less. Don't worry about the Debt. The whole world is unraveling and the only safe harbor is the US,

Let's see how this works. If I am in the House, I blame the Senate for not co-operating. If I am in the Senate, I blame the House. Still nothing gets done.

Both sides need to stop playing games and start working together.

Wow! Did we forget that the Democrats took control of Congress for the final two years of the Bush Administration and went along with the spending? Did we forget that Dodd and Frank refused to listen to the Bush Administration in regard to the coming collapse of the Mortgage situation?

On a Bush Administration proposal for a new agency charged with the financial oversight of both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac:

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.'''

The mortgage implosion started playing out a scant four years after this cynical pronouncement.

Wow Daniel! Did we forget who deregulated the banks?

Here's a clue: McCain's would-be Treasurer Republican ex-Senator Phil Gramm of Texas.

And Bush's laissez faire, bailout the too big to fail banks attitude was a big help (not).

Good, we're right back on topic.

Do you believe that raising taxes, deficit spending, increasing social programs, and tighter government control over business would improve the economy?

Hey Gary Taxes are at their lowest point in decades and the Teapublicans just waged a battle to let taxes GO UP! (And they lost to the Obama White House that wanted to cut taxes even more)

Where were all these Republican complaints when Reagan, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. were tripling and doubling the national debt???

And if conservatives really think deficit spending is so horrible why do you fight tooth and nail to let highly profitable corporations skip taxes while simultaneously doling out billions in tax-funded subsidies to other highly profitable industries like Big Oil???

Your party's hypocrisy is astonishing.

At least your front-runner admits what we all already knew - he ENJOYS firing people. Same goes for the rest of the cut-cut-cut GOP.

You can't grow jobs by cutting jobs.

So why doesn't it work in Illinois?

Ellen,
If you don’t know what “it” refers to in Illinois, then I think you have blinders on. We have out of control spending, out of control pensions, pension fraud, pension double-dipping, a recent increase in the income tax and corporations and businesses wanting to leave the state because of this environment. And your answer to this is that corporations aren’t taxed and regulated enough and the evil rich don’t pay enough taxes. Maybe my ideology shows in my comments but yours definitely shows and your blinded by it. For you to claim that Gary judges things by party is a term called "projection" because that is exactly what you do.

Why isn't it working in Greece?

And you don't stick to the liberal talking points? Again, it's called "projection"

The pension "problems" in reality come from the elitist 1%'ers demanding a few years back that the state have 90% of their FUTURE pension liabilities held back in reserves.

That's like banks demanding that prospective homeowners put 90% down.

If the pension reserves were brought back to a sane level there would be no manufactured problem.

But claiming that it's a "problem" to honor a person's livelihood by offering them decent benefits certainly is a right-wing talking point. Right-wingers are the ones who ENJOY firing people after all.

The pension problem is due to enhancements to the system starting back in 1971 that never should have been passed. System was made unsustainable due to these enhancements. You have no idea what you are talking about, do you!

Gosh, do you think that maybe 25% of the greek labor force working for the government may be the problem, while in Germany it's 10%? This implies that 25% of the Greek labor force produces nothing!

EBG - "not implementing" demand side economics? Since when? What do you call it when the interest rates where set artificially low (by the Federal Reserve) to spur the huge housing boom (and resulting market crash as predicted by Austrian economic theory)? What do you call it when the government acts as cosigner of student loans and creates demand for college educations (thereby driving education cost up)? What do you call Obamacare when individuals are forced to buy insurance (which will drive the cost of healthcare up even further)? Wake up - demand side economics (aka Keynesian economics) has been in place for 100 years and got us to where we are right now - staring a debt and/or dollar crisis right in the face! I'll pose the same question to you as I did to a different Keynesian on another thread - what would be your ideal economic solution? I'm looking for specifics like "Raise the tax rate to...for the following economic brackets...thereby generating a dollar amount of..." etc.

Sure,
How do you explain how Hong Kong became the richest place on the earth per square mile, with very low taxes, basically no regulation, and no social safety net?

How did the US go from being a starving outpost to the world's economic superpower in 300 years, with no income tax, almost no regulations, and no social safety net?

Shouldn't both of them have collapsed immediately due to the suicidal short sighted decisions made by businesses?

How did Reagan's tax cuts double tax revenue?

How come all the pent up demand in North Korea isn't producing an economic boom there? There are no suicidal companies in North Korea destroying their economy, everything is regulated, and everyone's needs are provided by the state. Utopia.

How many of these do you want?

"One more thing about Greece to note is that the wealthy in Greece pay next to no taxes"

The top marginal income tax rate in Greece is 45%.
The social security tax in Greece is another 28% from the employer and 16% from the employee for a total of (28+16)/128 = 34%, though I don't know if there's a salary cap on that.

Approximately 60% of Greeks don't earn enough to pay income taxes.

Where are you getting your data?

I agree with you on one count, we are headed toward the Grecian model of economics.

Gary has a magical time machine "How did the US go from being a starving outpost to the world's economic superpower in 300 years, with no income tax, almost no regulations, and no social safety net?"

We became a superpower AFTER the income tax, social safety net and common sense regulations began to be implemented in the early 20th century.

Read a history book. And read a REAL history book not a right-wing history book where patriots like Thomas Jefferson etc. get deleted for being "too lib'rul".

(Yep - you can look it up. Texas Teapublicans on the Texas state school board tried removing Declaration of Independence author Thomas Jefferson from the state's history books because he was too liberal.)

Your right, but let's tailor our program like China's ... The WSJ reports that China's Ministry of Education plans to phase out majors producing unemployable graduates. The government will soon start evaluating college majors by their employment rates, downsizing or cutting those studies in which more than 60% of graduates fail for two consecutive years to find work. What if the U.S. government were to adopt China's approach? According to the most recent U.S. census data, among the first majors to go: psychology, Art history, communications, journalism, english, all victim studies

Ellen, regarding North Korea, the simple point was that there is plenty of demand there... for EVERYTHING. And where are they at? Please stop accusing anyone who disagrees with you of just repeating talking points.

Liberals seem to believe that "Demand" is everything in economics. I think this is backwards. Someone must produce something before demand can take hold. Simply demanding something does nothing to create jobs because there has to be a producer first. Even if you just give people money.

Apple created the iPod. Did we need that product? We could just continue to sing songs to ourselves. Even if you gave 10,000 people $1000 to spend and they all said they wanted a miniature device that stores all of their music, someone or some company would still have to do the R&D, production, sales, etc. So the consumers desire for a product like this is meaningless unless there is a producer who is willing to take the risk to create it. Apple CREATED the demand for their products by producing them in the first place. The consequence of these activities created thousands or millions of jobs world wide.

I don’t mean to minimize "demand". Supply and Demand are both important. But it's important to qualify which one is more critical to starting economic activity rolling and that is clearly Production (supply). Our efforts should be focused on fostering the best environment for Production. You can only create real wealth by producing something, not CONSUMING.

"At this point in the cycle after the Reagan recovery, we were doing 800,000 to a million jobs a month."

Jack Welch: Govt Hindering Economic Recovery

A million jobs in one month- 200,000 jobs in a month is like spitting in Lake Michigan. What's our problem? An Administration and a Senate that doesn't care about the American economy-heck, they got jobs, the rest of us are on our own.

Speaking of which, why does the President of the United States have to arrive in Chicago at rush hour for a political fund raiser? I wonder how many people are being inconvienced by his fund-raiser? Shouldn't the President have to reimburse all those people who's time he is wasting? And I guess the taxpayers are footing the bill for the President to fly here, just like we footed the bill for the President and Michelle Antoinette to fly to Hawaii separately.

Mr Bush spent one heck of a lot of time in Crawford Texas, with is peeps. Mr Obama stayed in Washington to get some work done while your Republican House went home with another impass behind them.
Mr Bush started two wars and added prescription drug benefit to Medicare...all three without paying for them! He doubled our debt!
Mr Dold signed the Grover Norquist Pledge thereby giving up fair representation for the district, so don't expect him to pay for anything either.

Hey Rich, how's that move to Florida coming along? You know, it's unemployment rate is at about the same level as Illinois, so if you're moving there expecting everything to be rosy, good luck. And you continue to repeat the right wing pundit talking points exceptionally well. I especially love the Keystone Pipeline BS you keep pushing. Who'd you get that from?

Mr Bush's terms saw an increase of 89% in National Debt. Obama's term so far has seen an increase of 41% which includes saving the economy from depression and making money on that investment in America. Mr Bush was a Big Government Conservative and created a bunch of debt. Now, we have Republicans pitching Small Government Conservatisim so they can pull safety nets and voting rights from people. All this blow about States rights is a hidden agenda to gain greater control and destroy what it's taken many years to gain....it's called equal rights for all.

Oh perfect- the teleprompter! Who was that from? Wasn't it Palin?

I guess, Richard, that once there is a change of presidents, the odometer goes back to zero. Nothing that happened before a president takes office counts anymore. The past never affects the present, right? So no matter what happened pre-2008, it has no influence on today. Okay. Glad we're straight on that.

Justice Department approves Obama recess appointments. Hey Rich, there he goes again...working! The President got something done again, despite the Republican sit it out till the election bull. a bunch of sore losers!

Studies show that Fox viewers know LESS about facts and current events than people who don't watch any news shows at all.

And these people are deciding the Republican nominee for president? Scary.

Up until Carter the national debt was LESS than $1 trillion.

Reagan tripled it.

Bush Sr. doubled it.

Bush Jr. could've just followed Clinton's tax rates and budget spending levels and the debt would've been paid off by 2008, but instead Bush Jr. nearly tripled the debt again.

W even spent $2 trillion in his final months (MONTHS!) in office.

It's the GOP that has the spending problem. Worse, they leave without ever paying their huge tab.

You're so proud of yourself Rich for what you think is clever! I'd hate to take that away from you. Please, enjoy yourself to your heart's content! I'll stick to the real world.

Richard - I guess I scared off Ellen et al with my budget challenge. But now I have to challenge you. I'll grant you the massive spending increases you mention from the OMB data during the Dem majority years but I wouldn't trumpet that as a Republican/conservative victory. The truth is that the debt has increased EVERY year regardless of which party is in power. It is projected to be $21 trillion by 2016! Do you think that is sustainable? The Republicans have never even been able to hold the line let alone reduce the debt. So what is the budget solution you envision to end the deficit spending and start to reduce the debt? And before you or Ellen call me out I'll share my preferred solution - google "The 19 percent solution."

Don't tell them about how low Real Estate and Sales Taxes are in FLA too........but Tax and Spend is much better!

A new poll released Tuesday by Quinnipiac University shows 38 percent of the 1,412 registered voters responding on a random telephone survey taken between Jan. 4 - 8 gave the first-term Republican a positive job approval compared to 50 percent who rated Scott's job performance negatively."

Read more: http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/political/quinnipiac-poll-florida-governor-rick-scott-still-struggling-with-job-approval-numbers#ixzz1jGwKEHWe

You enjoy yourself down there now, ya hear (that's Southern speak for those of you who don't know)?

"Rick Scott has hit a new low in PPP's Florida polling with only 26% of voters now approving of his job performance to 58% who disapprove... Scott's numbers with Democrats are pretty much unchanged compared to then (June) and his standing with independents has gotten a little better. What's really caused the bottom to drop out for him is that even Republicans are starting to really sour on his leadership. In June Scott had a 63/30 approval spread with them. That's now dropped all the way down to 46/31."

"Scott is the most unpopular Governor in the country in PPP's polling."

"Scott would lose a hypothetical rematch with Alex Sink 53-37. 21% of Republicans say they'd choose Sink before they would vote for Scott again, and she has a 48-36 advantage with independent voters as well...Scott would have even more trouble though if Charlie Crist decided to change parties and challenge him. Crist, running as a Democrat, would crush Scott 55-32. In a hypothetical head to head Crist gets 25% of the Republican vote and wins independents by a 52-32 margin."

further- "Marco Rubio's poll numbers have declined every time PPP's polled Florida this year and voters are now evenly divided on him with 40% approving and 40% disapproving."

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/12/scott-hits-a-new-low.html

RB, you sure have an active imagination. I work in the building construction industry. Look around, what building construction industry? The building construction industry has been decimated. The unemployment rate in building construction might be as high as 40 percent. My business was fine while President Bush was in office, but dropped off immediately after President Obama was elected. Last year, business was down by 80 percent, but it has improved a little this year.

I have lived on the east coast, the west coast, the gulf coast, along the Mississippi River and in Crook County. Illinois is anything, but a wonderful state. It is the most corrupt state in the nation and Illinois is bankrupt (as is Chicago).

Illinois has one of the worst business climates in the nation. If Illinois is so wonderful, why are moving companies doing such a good business with relocating people to other states? The #1 destination for people leaving Illinois is Florida.

Illinois is another Michigan and Chicago is going the way of Detroit. The population of Chicago today is the same as it was in 1920. Everybody is leaving Chicago because of the political system in the City.

You can find all of this information by using Google-no need to go to Fox News for this information.

Yep, Illinois is broke. Florida is only half as broke. Still broke to the tune of $3.75B. Let that sunshine fill those budget gaps. If it won't, just continue the cuts to education and you can always drill baby drill....all along the coast! Just like you always wanted, Richard.

Today, Perry dropped his 'Vulture Capitalism' description and made no statements about Bain in a speech at Lizard Restaurant in South Carolina. So, if we can expect the right to expose Bain for what it really was, that window of opportunity has been closed. The right jumped all over Perry and Newt for even bringing it up.

Re my comment just above, that was the 1980s and 1990s, the new style is to raid entire states with tax break blackmail. They pit states and local communities against each other bidding for the biggest tax breaks. That should be illegal. Then, the feds send less money to the states because they've been tax starved by the lowest tax rates in over 50 years. Then, they get everyone to piss and moan about how badly the states manage their money. It's a racket and apparently very easy to win when people lap up their talking points. That's all not to mention the states that got stuck when they invested in AAA rated derivatives.

...and they say it under the campaign platform of 'states rights'. Perry wanted Texas to leave the Union, under 'states rights'. Some states are attempting voter registration rules that will cause difficulty for the poor to vote....under 'states rights'. Really, it's an attempt by the right to gain control.so much of this is the action of sore losers. Mitch McConnell said it..."our number one job is to defeat Obama". Not fixing the economy, creating jobs, not anything else. The number one job! That's why nothing is getting done. A bunch of sore losers afraid of losing control. No party has been perfect in all this but at least the Democrats have attempted progress.

No one is regulating the banks? That's not only a left wing talking point but an unfunny joke. There are over 115 regulatory agencies overseeing financial services. Maybe 125 or 150 agencies is the magic number. The problem is not the lack of regulations, but the overabundance of poorly written, unobjective regulations. Fraud is already illegal and I'll grant you that many of the big banks likely committed fraud in packaging mortgage-backed derivatives. But Obama has not directed the Dept of Justice to pursue charges against any of the big banks. Want to know why? Because if he did that the crony capitalism taking place amongst the big banks (especially Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac) and the Federal Reserve would be exposed. That is the scam that the ultra-rich have perpetuated on us. Audit the Fed - expose the scam!

Second on my list if I became President. First? Show me the Aliens.

In one post you call for more regulation (less freedom) and in the next you note that North Koreans can't afford anything. So how is moving toward the government control model going to fix the inequities? Owning an iPod, for some individuals, is called pursuit of happiness. Individuals are happiest when they are free to make their own destinies and responsible for the outcomes of their own decisions. It sounds like in your world you are not only content to let someone else decide what is best for you, me, and the rest of the tribe but you encourage it.

Right on time, Relentless. Perry is going after the Treasury and Fed today. He switched off of the Romney vulture capitalism claim. Right there with Hannity and Rush. Don't expose the real problems with trickle down BS. Get in line now....what's next? Mr, Obama going to Hawaii....heard that already, several times. Mr, Obama caused the national debt? Heard it already, enough to get tired of the right wing lies. A bunch of sore losers!

Good point Ellen.

The demand side takes money? Well strictly speaking that's not true. Money is simply a place holder for value, or wealth. To "demand" something is to offer something of value to trade for something else of value. So a person with no money at all can offer their services as their value which would create "demand" from nothing at all. In fact, that's how economies on my no-so-theoretical castaway island would boot strap themselves in the absence of any physical objects of value. The economic pie grows when people convert their time and ideas into real world value, services or objects, that others want.

Therefore, the people of NK CAN create demand, even if they have no money at all.

So you say that NK's economy is bad because people don't have money, and the reason they don't have money is that the government spends it all on the military.

OK. What if the NK government decided to kick start their economy and gave everyone 10,000 won... and told them to start rubbing. What would happen?

BTW: Please present evidence that this North-Korean-demand example is from Republican right wing talking points. I have never heard it before and as far as I know I was the one who originated the idea. If that's true, and if you keep insisting that everything I say is from Republican talking points, then that means you are now dealing with the person who is the source of all Republican right wing talking points, so you better bring your "A" game.

@Gary: Excellent points.
@Ellen and most of the other liberals on this comments chain are economically illiterate. Anyone who disagrees with them is an "evil right-winger" spewing talking points. It is a common tactic to avoid debating the issues.

Economically illiterate? Try starting two wars, prescription drug benefits and two tax cuts all at the same time! That's economically illiterate!

"we all want the same thing for all individuals - freedom and happiness"

That's not what I've seen. There are quite a lot of people who don't care at all about freedom, and many who clearly want to make others unhappy. I offer these threads as evidence.

Food for thought to be sure, Gary. Keep up the good work!

Hmmm, that's not too difficult to answer. Private property rights for one. Freedom of religion for another. The right to keep and bear arms for a third. Then there is that "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" thing.

Imagine a Demcrat being concerned about buying or selling gov't for the right price- that's all Democrats do. President Obama was here yesterday selling gov't in exchange for campaign donations.

Imagine somebody being concerned about civil rights, but who supports abortion. Don't unborn children count? What happened to the "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" for children who aren't born yet? Of course, your response is that those unborn children are humans yet. Well tell me when an unborn child becomes a human?

Texas kills more prisoners than any other State. Perry has decided he is against Abortion even in the case of rape and incest. Tell me, Richard. When is a prisoners life not a human life?

Sully... this is really just liberal-drone talk. Childish and anti-intellectual. Come on. Is there really some corporation or a wealthy neighbor of mine who is preying on me or denying me my chance to achieve success? Give me a break. Buying and selling the government for the right price goes on in both parties. It's called crony-capitalism. It's wrong. But the answer to combating crony-capitalism is not bigger government, higher taxes, extreme regulations. The bigger the government, the more you increase the likelihood of crony capitalism because we are all beholden more and more to the government.

Sully,
"A just government helps the individual protect their rights to life, liberty, and property. Anything less is a dereliction of duty, and anything more is an abuse of power."

That is my philosophy for good governance, and guess what... it just happens to be the law of the land!

The Constitution protects me from all kinds of abuse at the hands of government. If it isn't explicitly listed in Article I, Section 8, then the Federal Government can't do it. That means I am protected from being forced into the Social Security and Medicare Ponzi schemes. I am protected from ObamaCare. I am protected from being forced to pay for the thousands of programs the government has no right to fund.

I would be a perfectly happy guy if the Federal Government would simply limit itself to its Constitutionally restricted duties. I only ask the government to obey its own law. How about you? Do you want the government to obey the law, or do you like it as it is now where we are ruled by whoever gets 51% of the vote? You do realize that the Constitution is there to protect the 49% from the 51%, not give the 51% unlimited power over everyone?

Sadly, we are now a lawless nation, and there are no limits on what the government can do to us. Remember, a government big enough to give you anything you want is big enough to take everything you have. (No, that's not an original Gary talking point)

Wrong. Who said I am against capitalism? Your lovely corporations need regulation. Free Market does not mean no rules. I worked for several corporations and am not against them at all. If you want to teach your son something teach him to love his neighbor and the environment. Talk to him about how Fox News is a corporation not a teacher. Talk to him about how President Obama is a self made man, not a trust fund baby. Tell him about how the right wing claims 'freedom rings' each time they take away another right. Then, he'll be learning something.

Softball if you feel human life is a legal status.

RB.... B.S. You act like we are starting from scratch, like there aren't already pages and pages, thousands of regulations on corporations. My son loves his country and he does not believe in the liberal anger spewed towards his neighbors through class warfare rhetoric. He wants his neighbors to succeed as it is inherent to my/our conservatism to wish this. You are so worried about so-called lost rights taken by right-wingers or corporations yet you are so willing to confer so much power to liberal-temporary-politicians in Washington. And who the heck cares about Fox News. Should he get his "Truth" from MSNBC? Right. Let me get this straight. You are smart enough to understand that Fox New lies all the time but the millions of viewers they get are just stupid mouth-breathers, the great unwashed who can't figure this out. That sums up alot of liberalism, don't trust the people, the elites have to control the message.

Tony, I forgot one thing. Teach him that dad is not always right!

Richard. Just so I understand your position. The unborn, right to life. Prisoner, right to appeal. Sex abuse victim, no rights. Is that your position?

Sully: "By the way, are you still so sure Willingham was guilty?"

Yes, not a doubt in my mind. I reviewed the entire transcript of Willingham's trial-I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you didn't review the trial transcript before you came to your (expert) conclusion. He confessed to his wife that he set the fire two weeks before his execution. I believe Willingham's wife (and since you didn't interview her either, there is no way for you to dispute her statement).

And if you review the transcript of the sentencing hearing, you will find out what a sorry excuse of a human being Cameron Todd Willingham was. None of the evidence produced in the sentencing hearing was permitted in the trial.

Of course, since facts don't matter to you, none of the above is relevant to you.