agreed^^^

Yeah the problem is the woman couldn't shoot back. Not that her husband tried to kill her and several other people.

It seems rather sadistic to believe that the only alternative to random violence is a world in which every person is armed to the teeth and ready to fire at a moment's notice. That world seems quite inefficient and a frightening alternative to the world we deserve: one in which guns are scarce and gunmakers are not free to flood the market with their tools of death.

Before your wife drew her weapon he would have shot her dead.

250 Million Gun's exist in America and are protected by the 2nd Amendment. They are not going to go away, nor should they. This incident is a good example of how the Police can only show up, after you are dead and so is the Killer. If you wish to be one of the passive bystanders, that are unarmed and helpless, that is your choice. I choose to fight for my Right to live, that is in the Constitution too. People forget that this Nation was Founded by Armed Men, that took on England, the Indian's and anyone else who threatened their security. Gun's are a tool for self defense, I Conceal Carry one daily and so do many of the people you know. We can talk about all of the what if's, but it wont change the fact, that if you are armed, you have a chance, if you are unarmed, your not going to have any way to fight back.

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that along with being a tool used in defense, in the other man's hands it is a tool of assault that any one can pick up and use dangerously. Yes, we defended out borders against Britain. Then we used guns to wage assault on Germany, in Korea, in Vietnam....take your pick in any other military conflict. It was used to assault people in CO, AZ and WI recently.

You tell me I can talk about what ifs, but that is all you are doing as well. What if you get attacked? What if you shoot your adopted son thinking he is an intruder? What if you shoot your niece because you think she is a skunk?

Darn, I'm over educated. What I am stating here is that we shouldn't so blindly accept that this is the world we should have to live in in regards to gun violence. You can't tell me it is only a tool for defense when you are using it against someone wielding it on the offensive.

It shouldn't be this easy to buy a deadly weapon and kill multiple people in a matter of seconds and we shouldn't just accept it as normal.

Arguing that a handgun is a defensive weapon is like arguing gasoline is an anti-fire liquid.

Guns are protected by the 2nd Ammendment? That's what the NRA hopes for via Romney. Thankfully, as of this morning at least, the Constitution does not protect objects and Corporations are still not people.

Brian - why do you characterize this as 'normal'.
In a country of 300,000,000 there certainly are a lot of deaths by gun - but I believe the statistic that I recall from high school is still true: most murders involve people that knew each other. The most significant exception to this is the insanity on the South side of Chicago.
I am not a gun advocate at all. But I also would not agree that there is a 'problem' in White America with gun violence. Certainly there are situations that get quite a lot of coverage - but even in our messed up media era, I think that is because of the rarity of the event.
Frankly, if Obama loses and the people on the South side carry out threats of riotting and violence - I am actually for the first time in my life considering getting a gun to protect my family.

What I am saying with normal is that instead of arguing about how we can stop things like this from happening, the argument immediately turns to people saying we need more people armed. Therefor we are accepting that this will happen as a "normal" occurrence and crime and the way to stop it is to shoot the perpetrator first, second....or just before he gets the gun aimed at you.

Dan, I agree with you. If one is put into a life threatening situation like this the last thing you want is the police to show up unarmed. Why not take the guns away from them also? Ha. Everyone needs to protect themselves and loved ones. Bad people will always find some tool for violence. They will always be able to get a gun. There are two lots in life, one as a victor, the other as a victim. The choice is up to each one of us.

Ha! Only a Republican would call someone "over educated". Why is education so frightening to you people? Because people who learn to think don't blindly follow bad leaders? Yeah, much better to be an illiterate sheep. Would be funnier if you weren't raising kids to be just as happily ignorant as yourselves.

...by inflicting death upon others?

It does happen. I know. But there are plenty of other instances where things go wrong when a gun is involved. For every defense story, we can find one where a gun was used as the assaulting weapon as well.

How I am unbalanced, I don't get. We've gone over this. Disagreeing with you doesn't make me unbalanced, nor does it make you. I also didn't say that their life was more valuable than mine. In my eyes, life should be valued the same. I'm not a christian man, I don't believe in God. That doesn't change the fact that I don't feel we have a right to kill others. Just as the criminal shouldn't kill me, I shouldn't kill him. Might it happen? Yeah...it might. I don't want to die just as much as I don't want to kill someone else. I also don't want to be mistaken for an intruder in my home, shot because I look like a skunk, have a gun pulled on me because someone feels threatened.

And bad guys don't always flee. They never will always flee. There will always be criminals whether we are armed or not. I don't know if you saw recently, but the violent crime is trending up again. For almost 20 years it was dropping and pro gun folks touted Conceal Carry as one of the reasons. Well, more states have it now and crime is rising. Whether or not you, tom, jane..whoever...has a gun won't stop crime. It just means more people have a weapon to gun someone down.

There was a man arrested at a bar near my house last week. He had a gun on him (illegally,) a loaded clip on him, and a gun in his car with three more loaded clips. I could be wrong, but i don't think anyone has ever been killed at that bar or attacked by 30 or so people where they would need that many bullets.

I'm sorry you live your life in constant fear of attack. I might get shot, attacked, whatever, but I shouldn't have to be worried when I go out to a bar/restaurant that I might offend a man with a gun.

For every instance someone uses a gun defensively, there are tens of cases where kids of gun owners shoot each other, gun owners kill their family members by accident. An off duty area cop killed his son that way a couple of weeks ago, as did a homeowner on the east cost. You hear these stories all of the time. But you don't hear them about someone who's carrying stopping an attack. In fact, in AZ during the outdoor rampage there there was a guy carrying and he ran. He knew security or the police would come gunning for him. So, your pro gun defensive case is mostly B.S. pro gun lobby propaganda with little behind it in the way of reality.

Yes, we should, this is something that residents of 46 other states dont have to "imagine".

GG- This shooting happened in a state with concealed carry. I fail to see how it helps residents of states with concealed carry from imagining it happening in their hometown. This could (and does) happen everywhere.

Yeah, now that WI has concealed carry, they're gaining a reputation for gun rampages. Go figure.

No, not in HP, they Huff Toxic Chemicals and then Kill little Girl's with their car!

We can choose to shelter our loved ones from the killers gun shot, like 4 young men did in Aurora, Colorado. I would much rather stand and fight than cowar and die in the Fetal position.

He was also arrested in September of 2011 for abducting a 17-year-old girl with a diminished mental capacity. Now we will pay for him to sit in prison, at our expense.

Did you hear the story about the man who shot his 9 year old relative because he thought she was a skunk? Yes, there are stories of people protecting themselves with guns. Just like there are stories where people shoot their family members, accidentally shoot themselves, have their guns stolen, or decide that they need to exact revenge with their gun.

Yeah, we think everything is perfect. Yesirree. Or maybe we just accept reality. Reality is that bad things happen, they happen suddenly, for no reason, and people get hurt or die. Always has been that way, always will, I just don't really want to have to have a gun in my hand cocked and ready to fire whilst getting a pedicure. Silly me.

I made a 911 call once. Took the police over four minutes to arrive. Imagine what can happen in four minutes while a LEGALLY armed, or unarmed citizen waits.

Sorry, but almost every other state in America has it right. It's not the gun. It's the intelligent (or ignorant) person who owns it that matters. It's all about control with the anti-gun people.

What you will never learn is that all the control you think you have is an illusion, whether guns are legal or not. I can find you 20 stories about someone legally protecting themselves to every one firearm story that is always the result of carelessness or foolishness.

Tim, doesn't matter what WI or any other state does (and you can see up there if anything they've become less safe since they passed conceal carry, with numerous gun rampages recently.) Like most pro gunners, it's clear that to you everyone one on either side of this issue is all in our out, which is clearly not the case. It's not a black and white issue. Canada has a high firearms per capita ratio and stringent gun control. Sportsmen and hunters there are well armed. But conceal and carry? No way, proving you and the NRA lie about what gun control is. It's not all or nothing, take it or leave it. It's just common sense.

52seventies: Your comment that if anything states have become less safe since they passed concealed carry is a flat-out falsehood and a lie.

52seventies, either you were poorly educated, or you conveniently forgot your history lessons. The second amendment, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights was established to avoid abuses by the newly created federal government. The constitution already established the right of the federal government to establish the military, why would a militia be necessary? The Bill of Rights assured reluctant members of the Constitutional Conventions that the federal government would not have absolute authority over citizens. There were certain absolute rights that must be preserved to voice opposition, and yes perhaps revolt againt the federal government. The Constitution assures that the government can't infringe on your right to worship, your right to criticize the government, your right to peacefully assemble and protest against it, your right to a fair jury of your peers if the government attempts to prosecute or persecute you and yes the Bill of Rights guarantees your right to remain armed.

Additionally I think you likely suffer from selective application of logic. If you don't think the Constitution speaks about my ability to remain armed, then it certainly does not speak about a woman's "right" to have an abortion, which I am willing to bet you support.

Gotta love those who selectively site the Constitution or Bill of Rights only solely to suit their needs or opinions, but not those who they disagree with, right Ridgeway?

Tim, compare the number of firearms fatalities and injuries in Canada vs. in the U.S. Case closed.

So then wasn't the milita to keep the army/govt in check, not your fellow citizens?

Your not up on your Legal Data. See Heller, See McDonald, See Gower and check out Moore v Madigan at the June 8th, 2012 Hearing in Chicago. The 3 Judge Panel shredded the Attorney's representing the State of Illinois. BTW, the only State to NOT allow CCW... yet.

That argument makes it sound like a gun is the only way to stop violence. That isn't true. The AZ shooter was stopped by unarmed citizens. There are other ways when people are willing/able to do something.

Wow, more right wing "morality". Since I don't want to live in a wild west atmosphere, with every man woman anc child armed and ready to fire, therefore in a situation, the police should defend right wing gun nuts, but just let me just be shot? Yes, and I bet you call yourself a Christian too. Snort.

And, of course, there are plenty that show that homicides, accidents as a result of firearms, gun rampages and suicides spike when the number of handguns increase.

Cite one reliable source showing this, 52seventies, since you are so sure of yourself.

The problem with that is more states have gone over to CC (with that site using 06 info) and if i remember the stats from the FBI charts right (having quoted them on this site before...but I'll have to recheck) IL is somewhere like15th highest in violent crime per 100,000 residents...behind 14 other states with conceal carry. On top of that, with all but one state having some sort of CC now, our national violent crime rate has gone up for the first time in about 19 years. So we can stop using those numbers to say CC is right.

By it's pure definition, my study disproves your entire comment.

Sorry, we're 17th. (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl05.xls) If concealed carry is the best at stopping crime we should be tops in the nation. right?

Your study is two years old, way before the huge rash of violent crime that's plagued the city. So your point is invalid.

Your gunpundit site? It's still there. And I linked the fbi site that shows il (as the only non CC state) as being 17th in 2010.

You can't base an arguement about 50 states on ONE state. At least my study included the country and all 50 states as a whole.

I can't include other states because we are the only one left. So i'm a little handcuffed there. If we take the 2010 national avg of 403 per 100,000, there are a few more states above that as well. Conceal carry may prevent some, but it doesn't effect violent crime on the whole. If anything it doesn't move it plus or minus. And again, for the first time in almost 20 years our violent crime rate is going up for 2011. I'm not naive enough to say that is because of CC, but I can say it didn't help the number go down.

You showed a study that was based on Illinois.

There are plenty of studies that involve the other 49 states. You have just chosen to ignore those facts and studies and used Illinois as your sole arguement.

I didn't show a study only based on IL. I took Illinois' rate of violent crime in 2010 and stacked it against the rest of the states. There were 16 states with worse rates of violent crime in 2010. Which logically says there are 33 states below us as well. There are plenty of states with lower violent crime. But if conceal carry is shown to reduce crime, there shouldn't be that many states above us.

I'm willing to say all our numbers that we can come up with will never show the true totals. There are far too many other factors at play for each state. One of which is the number of large cities and dense population areas. Income can be a factor as well with poorer areas generally doing worse in crime stats. But just as you can call numbers to say Conceal Carry is a crime reducer, I can pull them to show opposite.

Keep proving my point with your odd logic, I am enjoying it. 2/3 of states that have concealed carry, from YOUR own source, have lower crime rates, and yet somehow you find a way to say that's a bad thing? Wow.

I guess I just don't get why you call me out for refusing to acknowledge good (which i did) when you yourself are ignoring the bad. You refuse to look at the other side as well. It's great that the other states have lower crime, and perhaps CC plays a part in that. But if conceal carry is such a massive crime deterrent, we shouldn't be 17th on the list of violent crime rates. You are so stuck in the saying that owning and carrying a gun is the best way to stop violent crime that you can't see that there are other factors at play as well.

My whole point isn't that CC doesn't ever work, it's that it doesn't play as big a role as you want it to. There are many other factors at play as well, attributing to 16 states having higher violent crime rates then Illinois and a higher national rate this year as well (with 49 states having some type of CC in the past year.) All it is doing is adding to the flood of guns in the United States.

And here we go with the vulgarity from 52seventies. Done talking to you since you can't even keep the conversation G or PG rated. Grow up.

So all policemen are cowards, by your definition 52seventies?

52seventies: whatever side of the argument you are on, comments like yours of 1:42pm don't help your cause.

In fact, I may have just seen a statistic that showed how online bullying like that is actually a better predictor of penis size than whether one carries a gun.

52, that kind of stuff really takes the validity of this discussion down a notch.

John Wayne would punch you right in the mouth for that statement, as well as the members of Law Enforcement, US Army, USMC and other real men.

John Wayne was a draft dodger. Typical, eh?

Right, but if i am an uniformed/uneducated voter the direct result isn't a hole in someone's body.

@Greg: It really is that simple, but you'll never convince those who are anti-gun of that. That would take common sense.

But hey, New York banned large sodas so I guess by the anti-gun theory, we should start seeing fat people disappear in New York soon huh?

Ok, so I'm one of the only other people on here agreeing with your stance. Relax, it's not the word but the connotation that you use it in to belittle in order to try and win an argument.

@52seventies: You clearly need to learn to read. I accusing you of making a vulgar post that wasn't rated PG. Not one that was. Sorry, but the bottom line is you showed you can't even have a civil discussion without being crass and insulting people so I have nothing else to say to you. Grow up.

And by the way....whine all you want. It's still my constitutional right to own a firearm if I choose, and there's nothing you can do to stop me from having that right if I choose to. Feel free to pout about it elsewhere if it bothers you.

(52 seventies),When I meet PhD. holding, Men and Women who do not know, how to cross a 4 lane street or how to turn left, without having near miss collision's, it makes me wonder about their knowledge of common thing's. When I read your post's, I think of the phrase by Albert Einstein, "I do not fear the Madman, I fear the crowd, that stand's by and does nothing to stop him." You Sir, are part of that crowd.

Ok, Dan, I realize you have contempt for education, but seriously, every word that ends in the lietter S does not require an apostrophe. Really hard to take someone seriously in an adult conversation who doesn't know that.

Oh...I get it. You're saying it's completely unrelated on a literal standpoint. In the wrong hands an uneducated vote just means that the voter himself was cheated at the polls. An educated vote means that I know what I stand for and believe in and place my confidence in someone's hands (even if you don't agree, it is still educated.) In order to successfully use a gun, for defense or assault, you needn't be educated

Remember that this country has never had, after Washington, a unanimous presidential election. Especially over the last 12 or so years, we have been split among voters at close to a 50/50. When you can find an instance here in America where >50% of the vote resulted in instant deaths upon casting said vote....so be it.

Uh oh. We're starting the car conversation again. Forgetting the fact that these two items (gun and car) are completely unrelated (one invented to kill, one invented to transport,) of course there are more deaths by automobile. It is nearly impossible to walk out the door without coming into contact with at least one car (visually or otherwise.) Yes, I know some people may be carrying in the US illegally, but I found a number of about 6 million permits to conceal carry. Add to that roughly 800000 law enforcement officers. So we'll round up to 7 million. We can include illegal guns, but I have no clue how to get a number on that since we don't track guns when they leave the factory.

I have found a number of roughly 255,000,000 registered cars in the US. So more people using them on a daily basis, and always being around them, of course there are more deaths.

I also know there are many more guns out there...i think the legal number may be higher than the registered cars...I don't remember. But we know not all of them are being carried....very far from it.

I encounter dangerous car drivers every single time I drive somewhere, without exception.

I don't encounter a dangerous gun owner every time I leave my house.

Sorry if you can't see my point, but I deal in facts. Sorry that bugs you.

Right, but in cars we aren't dealing with an item that's sole purpose upon invention was to kill something easier. I understand your fear of cars. That is why we require testing, a special license for all who want to drive, suspension of privileges for even a few minor offenses, insurance to cover those who you, using your car end up hurting. But again, a gun...purpose built to make killing easier....many people feel that restrictions on that are outlandish and wrong.

The statement has no merit, 1. He owned gun's before the restraining order was given. 2. No Gun Seller is required to wait 48 Hours in Wisconsin, it is cash and carry. 3. There is no 48 hour Federal Waiting period. In Illinois it is 24 Hours for a Long Gun, Rifle/shotgun and 72 Hours for a Handgun. The man was breaking the Law. The man Killed people, including himself. What is hard to understand here? He was a Madman and he is now dead. I conceal Carry everyday, I would not want to be in a situation where a guy like this goes crazy and I am caught defenseless. I have a spare tire in my car, even though I have never had a flat. I have a Fire Extinguisher, even though I have never had a Fire. I have Life Insurance and it is not only the kind that is on paper and is used when I die.

A restraining order was in effect that required him to give up any guns. He should not have been able to buy the gun. If there was a background check and waiting period for all gun sales in Wisconsin the authorities could have prevented this from happening.

RB, there is a background check in WI. There is a background check in every state. It is run by the FBI and called the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. Every purchaser must fill out a form 4473, which the FFL/Gun Store then electronically submits and waits for a near instant response if the purchase is allowed. Clearly the system did not work properly THIS TIME, but that does not mean we need more laws. We need to enforce the ones we have. Please try to learn about a topic before you spread misinformation.

All this does is prove yet again, that if criminals want to get guns, they will, legal or not. Or hasn't anyone figured that part out yet?

What are you gonna do, round up half a billion guns? Keep dreaming.

You are trying to paint with a broad brush of fear. I know we don't and never will live in a Utopian society. Weapons will always be available, I just don't see the need for such easy access for all. There isn't a quick fix for America's gun violence. I know that as well. All I can hope is that perhaps my son, or eventually his children don't need to be trained to shoot someone to safely go to school or a movie.

As for your quotes, they are strong. They also don't say that the crowd doing nothing needs a gun, or without a gun you can't stop evil. Things can get done without resorting to or reciprocating with extreme violence. As for good men doing nothing to stop it, aren't you doing nothing to alleviate the main issue of gun violence? You seem to choose to not try and prevent crimes from happening but to either send the assailant on to his next victim or maim/kill him.

Concealed Carry is coming to Illinois, finally. With it come's, Gun's being in place's where they have never been before, in Women's Purse's, Car Console's, etc. The number of Gun's in the hand's of the Public will increase dramaticaly. In Wisconsin, there are over 100,000 CCW License holder's. The Children must be taught how to respond to finding a Gun or people will be injured or Killed, right here in Evanston.

Jim, you logic is flawed, people do not think a child will find the Gun. The Child needs to know what to do, if they do find a Gun, perhaps one discarded by a criminal. You can assume all will be fine, but I do not ass-u-me !